0 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:30,000 Dear viewer, these subtitles were generated by a machine via the service Trint and therefore are (very) buggy. If you are capable, please help us to create good quality subtitles: https://c3subtitles.de/talk/2183 Thanks! 1 00:00:08,530 --> 00:00:10,599 Welcome back on the exciting stage here 2 00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:11,949 at RC three. 3 00:00:11,950 --> 00:00:13,959 Our next talk will be held by Katherine 4 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:16,359 Tai. She's currently doing her 5 00:00:16,360 --> 00:00:18,489 Ph.D. in Political Science 6 00:00:18,490 --> 00:00:20,679 at MIT and writing about Chinese internet 7 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:21,699 politics. 8 00:00:21,700 --> 00:00:23,709 And that's also the topic of her talk, 9 00:00:23,710 --> 00:00:25,929 which is called Painting Tech Dystopia. 10 00:00:25,930 --> 00:00:27,999 How the West Tells It Saves Fairy Tales 11 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:29,889 about Asia and Middle East Aerial. 12 00:00:29,890 --> 00:00:31,149 Have fun. 13 00:00:31,150 --> 00:00:33,249 Hey, everyone, thanks for, 14 00:00:33,250 --> 00:00:34,600 I guess, watching my talk. 15 00:00:35,830 --> 00:00:37,989 I called it creating tech dystopia. 16 00:00:37,990 --> 00:00:39,819 How the West tells itself fairy tales 17 00:00:39,820 --> 00:00:41,739 about Asia and believes they're real. 18 00:00:41,740 --> 00:00:43,179 So we want to talk about fairy tales 19 00:00:43,180 --> 00:00:45,549 today. Unfortunately, not 20 00:00:45,550 --> 00:00:47,379 kind of like ones that make you feel good 21 00:00:47,380 --> 00:00:48,759 about yourself, but the ones that maybe 22 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:51,069 we shouldn't be telling, because some 23 00:00:51,070 --> 00:00:52,299 people's home a belief that they're not 24 00:00:52,300 --> 00:00:53,300 fairy tales. 25 00:00:54,970 --> 00:00:57,129 So basically, when you 26 00:00:57,130 --> 00:00:58,959 hear about technology in Asia, often 27 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:01,209 there are increasingly this kind of like, 28 00:01:01,210 --> 00:01:03,399 Oh my god, there's this idea and this 29 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:05,469 vision of a place 30 00:01:05,470 --> 00:01:07,389 that somehow, somehow lives in the future 31 00:01:07,390 --> 00:01:09,639 compared to places like Europe 32 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:11,799 or North America. 33 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:13,449 But the problem is that sometimes when 34 00:01:13,450 --> 00:01:15,639 these stories are being told, some 35 00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:16,929 of them simply aren't true, and that's 36 00:01:16,930 --> 00:01:17,930 what this talk is about. 37 00:01:19,030 --> 00:01:21,279 So I want to talk about the things we 38 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:22,869 say about Asia and the things a lot of 39 00:01:22,870 --> 00:01:24,969 people in the West do do believe about 40 00:01:24,970 --> 00:01:27,339 Asia, but are basically simply factually 41 00:01:27,340 --> 00:01:28,809 untrue. 42 00:01:28,810 --> 00:01:30,999 I think one important disclaimer 43 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:32,739 is what this talk will do and what it 44 00:01:32,740 --> 00:01:34,629 won't do. So I won't be doing the 45 00:01:34,630 --> 00:01:36,339 debunking here. I'm going to use two 46 00:01:36,340 --> 00:01:38,199 examples of things that people believe 47 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:40,659 about Asia that are genuinely 48 00:01:40,660 --> 00:01:43,659 just completely B.S., 49 00:01:43,660 --> 00:01:45,129 but I'm not going to do the debunking. 50 00:01:45,130 --> 00:01:46,509 I think if there's anything we've learned 51 00:01:46,510 --> 00:01:48,579 in the last two years is 52 00:01:48,580 --> 00:01:49,779 that when someone believe something 53 00:01:49,780 --> 00:01:52,089 that's factually untrue, it's not 54 00:01:52,090 --> 00:01:53,679 really easy to convince them of the truth 55 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:55,119 by just telling them the facts. 56 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:56,259 There are a lot of other people who've 57 00:01:56,260 --> 00:01:57,279 done the debunking. 58 00:01:57,280 --> 00:01:59,379 So both my examples will have sourced 59 00:01:59,380 --> 00:02:01,209 slides that you can screenshot because 60 00:02:01,210 --> 00:02:03,549 this is a video and so you can screenshot 61 00:02:03,550 --> 00:02:05,349 the sources and look at them yourself. 62 00:02:05,350 --> 00:02:06,999 What I want to do instead is I want to 63 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:09,219 use those examples and 64 00:02:09,220 --> 00:02:11,019 to kind of give you a sense of like the 65 00:02:11,020 --> 00:02:13,359 absolutely genuinely somewhat ludicrous 66 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:15,309 things people believe despite not being 67 00:02:15,310 --> 00:02:17,679 true about technology in Asia. 68 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:19,659 And I want to talk about why this is a 69 00:02:19,660 --> 00:02:21,969 problem and what this means for 70 00:02:21,970 --> 00:02:24,099 tech discourse and which consequences 71 00:02:24,100 --> 00:02:25,209 it has. 72 00:02:25,210 --> 00:02:27,729 So with that out of the way? 73 00:02:27,730 --> 00:02:29,589 Oh yeah. So I basically because I'm not 74 00:02:29,590 --> 00:02:31,299 doing the debunking, you basically have 75 00:02:31,300 --> 00:02:32,259 to take me at my word. 76 00:02:32,260 --> 00:02:33,519 So you have to believe me when I tell you 77 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:35,409 this is something that it doesn't exist. 78 00:02:35,410 --> 00:02:37,269 I'm sorry. You have to trust me on that. 79 00:02:37,270 --> 00:02:39,009 So with that out of the way, I wanted to 80 00:02:39,010 --> 00:02:41,109 start with my first example, which hits 81 00:02:41,110 --> 00:02:43,149 very close to home these days and which 82 00:02:43,150 --> 00:02:45,519 is electronic contact tracing in Asia. 83 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:48,249 So last year, in April 2020, 84 00:02:48,250 --> 00:02:51,099 the New York Times wrote twice 85 00:02:51,100 --> 00:02:53,229 in their leads that Asian countries have 86 00:02:53,230 --> 00:02:54,789 invested heavily in digital contact 87 00:02:54,790 --> 00:02:56,829 tracing, which uses technology to warn 88 00:02:56,830 --> 00:02:58,809 people when they have been exposed to the 89 00:02:58,810 --> 00:03:00,009 coronavirus. 90 00:03:00,010 --> 00:03:02,349 In a different article, they wrote. 91 00:03:02,350 --> 00:03:03,999 The French are cautiously considering 92 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:05,409 digital tracking, which has proved 93 00:03:05,410 --> 00:03:07,539 effective in Asia at 94 00:03:07,540 --> 00:03:09,009 the time. How hard? 95 00:03:09,010 --> 00:03:10,389 Who works for the economist and writes 96 00:03:10,390 --> 00:03:12,399 about technology for them already called 97 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:14,529 out these New York Times 98 00:03:14,530 --> 00:03:16,449 lead and basically was saying Asian 99 00:03:16,450 --> 00:03:18,129 countries are relying on manual tracing 100 00:03:18,130 --> 00:03:19,599 just like everyone else. 101 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:21,279 The boss of the Singapore tracking app 102 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:22,809 says it here. He also spoke to the 103 00:03:22,810 --> 00:03:23,810 Taiwanese CDC. 104 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:27,579 Similarly, at the time I was in Germany 105 00:03:27,580 --> 00:03:29,499 and I heard everyone talking about these 106 00:03:29,500 --> 00:03:30,999 contact tracing apps that had been so 107 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:31,999 successful in Asia. 108 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:34,179 So this was late March, 109 00:03:34,180 --> 00:03:35,799 early April primarily. 110 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:37,089 And I was like, This is interesting. 111 00:03:37,090 --> 00:03:38,289 I'm going to look into this, and I wanted 112 00:03:38,290 --> 00:03:40,449 to write an article about what 113 00:03:40,450 --> 00:03:42,099 these tracing technologies are and how 114 00:03:42,100 --> 00:03:43,119 they worked. 115 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:45,219 The thing is, when I went and looked for 116 00:03:45,220 --> 00:03:47,289 these apps, they just didn't exist in the 117 00:03:47,290 --> 00:03:48,729 way people imagined them. 118 00:03:48,730 --> 00:03:50,169 The way what people imagined was 119 00:03:50,170 --> 00:03:52,059 essentially that people in Asia are being 120 00:03:52,060 --> 00:03:55,299 tracked 24-7 and then somehow magically 121 00:03:55,300 --> 00:03:57,009 get a notification that tells them if 122 00:03:57,010 --> 00:04:00,249 they've been in contact with someone 123 00:04:00,250 --> 00:04:02,110 who who had COVID at the time. 124 00:04:03,250 --> 00:04:05,349 The truth, as ever so often is 125 00:04:05,350 --> 00:04:06,309 much more complicated. 126 00:04:06,310 --> 00:04:07,869 Like I've said, I'm not going to be doing 127 00:04:07,870 --> 00:04:09,549 the debunking here, but you need to take 128 00:04:09,550 --> 00:04:11,859 my word for it that at least until very, 129 00:04:11,860 --> 00:04:13,899 very recently, I wasn't able to really 130 00:04:13,900 --> 00:04:16,119 find anywhere in Asia that had somehow 131 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:18,489 use this magical electronic contact 132 00:04:18,490 --> 00:04:20,419 tracing at scale. 133 00:04:20,420 --> 00:04:22,479 So two examples for debunking this 134 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:25,209 are a piece that I wrote in German 135 00:04:25,210 --> 00:04:27,279 Firstpost magazine and a 136 00:04:27,280 --> 00:04:29,439 piece in The New Yorker where the author 137 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:31,509 describes in a lot of detail how 138 00:04:31,510 --> 00:04:32,919 the electronic contact tracing there 139 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:34,539 really works. I think one important 140 00:04:34,540 --> 00:04:36,489 takeaway from this is that in Germany, in 141 00:04:36,490 --> 00:04:38,319 the last year or so, people have kind of 142 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:40,089 just been repeating the statement, and 143 00:04:40,090 --> 00:04:41,649 it's now referred to as a fact. 144 00:04:41,650 --> 00:04:43,749 So this idea, this fairy tale that's 145 00:04:43,750 --> 00:04:45,729 kind of somehow seemingly come out of 146 00:04:45,730 --> 00:04:47,379 nowhere has become a fact that people 147 00:04:47,380 --> 00:04:49,479 widely believe, even though it is not 148 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:51,399 true. I think another thing that's 149 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:53,529 important about this is that they are 150 00:04:53,530 --> 00:04:55,779 small parcels of truth. 151 00:04:55,780 --> 00:04:58,089 So for instance, when you go to Taiwan, 152 00:04:58,090 --> 00:05:00,159 which I did last November, so 153 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:02,079 a year ago during the pandemic, you have 154 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:03,609 to do it to be quarantine. 155 00:05:03,610 --> 00:05:05,229 And during that two week quarantine 156 00:05:05,230 --> 00:05:06,869 period. The government tracks your 157 00:05:06,870 --> 00:05:08,789 location with your phone, but then 158 00:05:08,790 --> 00:05:11,489 somehow it's kind of like 159 00:05:11,490 --> 00:05:13,679 like in a game where, right, like somehow 160 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:15,299 these like partial truths turn into 161 00:05:15,300 --> 00:05:17,009 something completely different, like in 162 00:05:17,010 --> 00:05:19,109 the public imagination and this whole 163 00:05:19,110 --> 00:05:21,149 like you get tracked for two weeks so you 164 00:05:21,150 --> 00:05:23,249 don't leave quarantine turns into people 165 00:05:23,250 --> 00:05:24,809 in Asia, are being tracked 24-7. 166 00:05:24,810 --> 00:05:26,489 This would be completely impossible. 167 00:05:26,490 --> 00:05:28,499 So it doesn't mean that there is no 168 00:05:28,500 --> 00:05:29,549 electronic means. 169 00:05:29,550 --> 00:05:31,859 It's just that for one, there was 170 00:05:31,860 --> 00:05:33,119 I wasn't really able to find much 171 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:35,189 evidence that it's doing much. 172 00:05:35,190 --> 00:05:37,589 And to the stuff that's being imagined 173 00:05:37,590 --> 00:05:39,899 in places like Germany or in 174 00:05:39,900 --> 00:05:41,429 the reputable media like the New York 175 00:05:41,430 --> 00:05:43,589 Times isn't necessarily 176 00:05:43,590 --> 00:05:46,119 actually accurate to what's happening. 177 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:49,379 And the second example 178 00:05:49,380 --> 00:05:51,779 is the China 179 00:05:51,780 --> 00:05:53,939 China's social credit system, which 180 00:05:53,940 --> 00:05:55,499 is a particular favorite. 181 00:05:55,500 --> 00:05:57,119 This whole narrative of the social credit 182 00:05:57,120 --> 00:05:59,729 system came out and 183 00:05:59,730 --> 00:06:02,669 I would say around 2015. 184 00:06:02,670 --> 00:06:04,469 And so there are some great examples of 185 00:06:04,470 --> 00:06:05,939 what people imagine when they talk about 186 00:06:05,940 --> 00:06:06,899 it. 187 00:06:06,900 --> 00:06:09,059 So this is on the left 188 00:06:09,060 --> 00:06:11,429 here. We have a quote 189 00:06:11,430 --> 00:06:13,529 from Politico, who 190 00:06:13,530 --> 00:06:15,929 are telling a reporting on a 191 00:06:15,930 --> 00:06:18,119 United Nations pledge 192 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:20,279 about artificial intelligence. 193 00:06:20,280 --> 00:06:22,109 So China on Tuesday signed off on a 194 00:06:22,110 --> 00:06:24,209 United Nations pledge to stop artificial 195 00:06:24,210 --> 00:06:26,009 intelligence from wreaking havoc on 196 00:06:26,010 --> 00:06:28,349 societies, including by banning 197 00:06:28,350 --> 00:06:30,419 the use of AI for social scoring 198 00:06:30,420 --> 00:06:32,549 systems, a practice Beijing itself 199 00:06:32,550 --> 00:06:34,529 has popularized in recent years and 200 00:06:34,530 --> 00:06:36,629 currently uses to score Chinese citizens 201 00:06:36,630 --> 00:06:39,389 based on their perceived trustworthiness. 202 00:06:39,390 --> 00:06:40,619 In addition, we have this wonderful 203 00:06:40,620 --> 00:06:43,409 picture from Wired where they visualize, 204 00:06:43,410 --> 00:06:45,389 right, like everyone with the score of 205 00:06:45,390 --> 00:06:46,889 like the three digit score on top of 206 00:06:46,890 --> 00:06:47,989 their heads. 207 00:06:47,990 --> 00:06:49,589 Another nice example comes from a German 208 00:06:49,590 --> 00:06:50,609 newspaper. 209 00:06:50,610 --> 00:06:52,889 I translated this from 2018, 210 00:06:52,890 --> 00:06:55,409 where the author very vividly describes 211 00:06:55,410 --> 00:06:57,629 this really dystopian picture. 212 00:06:57,630 --> 00:06:59,529 Legions of cameras and drones screen 213 00:06:59,530 --> 00:07:01,529 citizens every step for the behavior they 214 00:07:01,530 --> 00:07:03,179 receive or lose points as part of the 215 00:07:03,180 --> 00:07:05,369 social credit system based on if they, 216 00:07:05,370 --> 00:07:07,169 for example, helped a neighbor or ran 217 00:07:07,170 --> 00:07:08,459 through a red light. 218 00:07:08,460 --> 00:07:10,169 It sounds terrifying, right? 219 00:07:10,170 --> 00:07:12,209 Problem is again, is not true. 220 00:07:12,210 --> 00:07:14,099 So with the social credit system, there's 221 00:07:14,100 --> 00:07:16,169 this idea that somehow citizens in 222 00:07:16,170 --> 00:07:18,869 China are scored on a lick 223 00:07:18,870 --> 00:07:22,199 some scale and get a score 224 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:23,549 out of, I guess, nine hundred ninety 225 00:07:23,550 --> 00:07:25,649 nine, and that somehow 226 00:07:25,650 --> 00:07:27,569 rates their social trustworthiness. 227 00:07:27,570 --> 00:07:28,949 Again, the problem is this isn't true. 228 00:07:28,950 --> 00:07:30,809 Like if you have friends who live in 229 00:07:30,810 --> 00:07:32,909 China, you should ask them if they 230 00:07:32,910 --> 00:07:34,589 have a three digit scorer, and I am 231 00:07:34,590 --> 00:07:36,239 fairly sure that they will tell you no, 232 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:38,159 they might be other things that are 233 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:40,559 called social credit, but these are not 234 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:42,389 the three digit scoring system. 235 00:07:42,390 --> 00:07:44,429 Again, this is something that simply, 236 00:07:44,430 --> 00:07:46,979 genuinely simply exists in the 237 00:07:46,980 --> 00:07:48,899 Western imagination about China. 238 00:07:48,900 --> 00:07:50,609 Again, it's simply not true. 239 00:07:50,610 --> 00:07:52,409 I think one thing that's happening with 240 00:07:52,410 --> 00:07:54,179 social credit, the whole thing is 241 00:07:54,180 --> 00:07:55,229 extremely complex. 242 00:07:55,230 --> 00:07:56,639 But I think one thing that's really 243 00:07:56,640 --> 00:07:57,870 important about it is that 244 00:07:59,100 --> 00:08:00,959 you kind of have this thing that happens 245 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:03,179 where you have this imaginary that's very 246 00:08:03,180 --> 00:08:04,349 scary and dystopian. 247 00:08:04,350 --> 00:08:06,389 And somehow, like the state is like 248 00:08:06,390 --> 00:08:07,319 omniscient. 249 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:08,909 And with technology. But then the reality 250 00:08:08,910 --> 00:08:10,259 looks more like the picture that I have 251 00:08:10,260 --> 00:08:12,449 on the slide on the right where you see, 252 00:08:12,450 --> 00:08:13,649 like a woman who's kind of filling up 253 00:08:13,650 --> 00:08:15,779 paper because the South China Morning 254 00:08:15,780 --> 00:08:17,489 Post went to one of the cities that often 255 00:08:17,490 --> 00:08:19,649 gets referenced with the sole social 256 00:08:19,650 --> 00:08:21,719 credit system thing and found 257 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:23,069 out that actually, a lot of this is like 258 00:08:23,070 --> 00:08:24,569 people filling out paper forms, and a lot 259 00:08:24,570 --> 00:08:26,279 of people in that city don't even know 260 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:27,929 that the social like they have a social 261 00:08:27,930 --> 00:08:29,399 credit score, allegedly. 262 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:31,079 And so that it really impacts their life 263 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:33,269 much less than this, 264 00:08:33,270 --> 00:08:35,918 the Western imagination tells us. 265 00:08:35,919 --> 00:08:38,158 And again, like with the contact 266 00:08:38,159 --> 00:08:40,499 tracing, here's a source slide that is 267 00:08:40,500 --> 00:08:42,538 much longer than the first one. 268 00:08:42,539 --> 00:08:44,009 Again, please screenshot it and read 269 00:08:44,010 --> 00:08:44,939 these things. 270 00:08:44,940 --> 00:08:46,739 A lot of people who have done much more 271 00:08:46,740 --> 00:08:48,509 work on this than I have have written 272 00:08:48,510 --> 00:08:49,799 about and have debunked it. 273 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:51,839 You can see of the titles the messy truth 274 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:53,099 about social credit. It's just very 275 00:08:53,100 --> 00:08:54,359 complicated. 276 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:55,949 China's Orwellian social credit score 277 00:08:55,950 --> 00:08:56,849 isn't real. 278 00:08:56,850 --> 00:08:58,289 The problem is that these people are 279 00:08:58,290 --> 00:09:01,439 again writing against this 280 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:03,659 idea this fairy tale of a score 281 00:09:03,660 --> 00:09:04,869 that everyone's getting. 282 00:09:04,870 --> 00:09:07,259 And this idea simply isn't true. 283 00:09:07,260 --> 00:09:09,689 So why do we believe 284 00:09:09,690 --> 00:09:10,919 these things about Asia, right? 285 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:13,229 Like why is it possible for me to 286 00:09:13,230 --> 00:09:15,419 like, talk to a random person in 287 00:09:15,420 --> 00:09:16,979 the US or in Germany? 288 00:09:16,980 --> 00:09:19,049 And they will assume that they 289 00:09:19,050 --> 00:09:21,269 will think that they know that people 290 00:09:21,270 --> 00:09:23,159 in China are being scored for their 291 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:24,779 social trustworthiness, even though this 292 00:09:24,780 --> 00:09:26,489 isn't true, right? Like, it's like me 293 00:09:26,490 --> 00:09:28,799 telling you that there's pink cows 294 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:30,959 in the skies in France because 295 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:32,219 France is right next door. 296 00:09:32,220 --> 00:09:34,049 I will be recording this in Berlin, so 297 00:09:34,050 --> 00:09:35,050 it's quite close. 298 00:09:35,940 --> 00:09:37,649 Like, we know this isn't true, but 299 00:09:37,650 --> 00:09:39,659 somehow we believe like all this other 300 00:09:39,660 --> 00:09:41,340 stuff about Asia, for some reason, 301 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:44,849 I think one really important part 302 00:09:44,850 --> 00:09:47,249 of the framing here is that 303 00:09:47,250 --> 00:09:48,959 we need to think about these stories as 304 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:50,399 basically science fiction. 305 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:51,539 This is basically science fiction. 306 00:09:51,540 --> 00:09:52,449 What's happening here, right? 307 00:09:52,450 --> 00:09:54,389 Like if we're writing these stories, what 308 00:09:54,390 --> 00:09:56,129 we're getting is science fiction because 309 00:09:56,130 --> 00:09:58,769 people are taking small facts, 310 00:09:58,770 --> 00:10:00,899 small bits of information, 311 00:10:00,900 --> 00:10:02,999 often taking them out of context, such 312 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:04,379 as, for example, the existence of a 313 00:10:04,380 --> 00:10:05,849 document that describes. 314 00:10:05,850 --> 00:10:07,949 Something in a very abstract way that it 315 00:10:07,950 --> 00:10:10,139 called a social credit system. 316 00:10:10,140 --> 00:10:12,269 And then extrapolating from that, so even 317 00:10:12,270 --> 00:10:14,009 though we might have a document that's 318 00:10:14,010 --> 00:10:16,139 just very vague and it's not 319 00:10:16,140 --> 00:10:17,279 really telling you much. 320 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:19,469 People take that, apply their imagination 321 00:10:19,470 --> 00:10:21,149 to it. And then somehow we end up with 322 00:10:21,150 --> 00:10:22,949 these fairy tales and often very 323 00:10:22,950 --> 00:10:25,019 dystopian fairy tales 324 00:10:25,020 --> 00:10:26,129 in these worlds. 325 00:10:26,130 --> 00:10:28,019 Asia doesn't just become kind of like a 326 00:10:28,020 --> 00:10:29,969 canvas for science fiction writing, but 327 00:10:29,970 --> 00:10:31,619 it becomes specifically a canvas for 328 00:10:31,620 --> 00:10:33,899 dystopian science fiction writing. 329 00:10:33,900 --> 00:10:35,909 And I think that's a particular problem. 330 00:10:35,910 --> 00:10:37,829 So I think the first important takeaway 331 00:10:37,830 --> 00:10:40,079 from this talk should be 332 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:41,909 that Asia is not your canvas, right? 333 00:10:41,910 --> 00:10:44,159 Like, it's not just a place to project 334 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:46,729 like techno fears about technology 335 00:10:46,730 --> 00:10:48,359 on. Instead, it's a real place where real 336 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:50,519 people live and they're like, 337 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:52,799 they obviously have real problems. 338 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:54,179 But when we talk about it, we shouldn't 339 00:10:54,180 --> 00:10:56,549 be talking about Asia accurately. 340 00:10:56,550 --> 00:10:58,109 Also, side note Obviously, Asia is very 341 00:10:58,110 --> 00:10:59,969 large, but often it tends to get 342 00:10:59,970 --> 00:11:02,069 conflated into just kind of one 343 00:11:02,070 --> 00:11:03,239 place. 344 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:05,009 So now I'm going to get into the meat of 345 00:11:05,010 --> 00:11:06,119 the talk because this was just set up. 346 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:08,189 This is why I'm told this is where I'm 347 00:11:08,190 --> 00:11:09,659 just telling you all the stuff that 348 00:11:09,660 --> 00:11:11,219 people believe. That's not not true. 349 00:11:12,300 --> 00:11:14,549 So I think one important thing why 350 00:11:14,550 --> 00:11:15,719 you should be listening to me and why we 351 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:17,039 should be thinking about this and having 352 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:18,209 a conversation about this, because there 353 00:11:18,210 --> 00:11:19,589 are several reasons why this is bad. 354 00:11:19,590 --> 00:11:21,089 And I'm going to tell you five reasons 355 00:11:21,090 --> 00:11:22,559 why it's bad. 356 00:11:22,560 --> 00:11:24,209 The first reason it's racist in its 357 00:11:24,210 --> 00:11:25,739 techno Orientalist, right? 358 00:11:25,740 --> 00:11:27,899 So in English, German and probably 359 00:11:27,900 --> 00:11:30,629 many other media technology 360 00:11:30,630 --> 00:11:32,879 in Asia exists in this techno Orientalist 361 00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:34,949 frame. It's these imaginary stuff like 362 00:11:34,950 --> 00:11:37,619 a place that so other and so different. 363 00:11:37,620 --> 00:11:39,419 But that's not really a real place like 364 00:11:39,420 --> 00:11:41,399 people in Asia, and these imaginations 365 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:43,739 aren't really necessarily Maginnis real 366 00:11:43,740 --> 00:11:44,339 people. 367 00:11:44,340 --> 00:11:46,499 It becomes again like this imaginary 368 00:11:46,500 --> 00:11:48,779 place that is like 369 00:11:48,780 --> 00:11:51,149 genuinely just honestly just bad 370 00:11:51,150 --> 00:11:53,219 because it deprives these people off 371 00:11:53,220 --> 00:11:56,309 their humanity in Western imaginations 372 00:11:56,310 --> 00:11:57,389 on a practical level. 373 00:11:57,390 --> 00:11:59,309 It also has very practical consequences. 374 00:11:59,310 --> 00:12:01,499 One thing, for instance, that 375 00:12:01,500 --> 00:12:03,509 people in the West like to talk about is 376 00:12:03,510 --> 00:12:05,189 how great democracy is. 377 00:12:05,190 --> 00:12:06,839 The problem is that when people from 378 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:08,849 China come to places like Germany or the 379 00:12:08,850 --> 00:12:11,069 U.S. and they read media that 380 00:12:11,070 --> 00:12:13,049 sees things that are obviously false 381 00:12:13,050 --> 00:12:14,969 about their home, but they know to be 382 00:12:14,970 --> 00:12:16,319 false because they've lived in these 383 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:18,449 places. That also undermines trust in 384 00:12:18,450 --> 00:12:20,369 these institutions, and it makes it much, 385 00:12:20,370 --> 00:12:22,349 much harder to actually convince people 386 00:12:22,350 --> 00:12:23,729 that, well, democracy is great. 387 00:12:23,730 --> 00:12:26,099 I've personally like met people 388 00:12:26,100 --> 00:12:27,659 or known people from China who've come 389 00:12:27,660 --> 00:12:29,719 to, for example, Germany and then read 390 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:31,679 German media and sometimes see things 391 00:12:31,680 --> 00:12:33,119 like this, right? Like these really 392 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:35,309 blatant obvious wrong 393 00:12:35,310 --> 00:12:38,189 things about China. 394 00:12:38,190 --> 00:12:40,709 And then their conclusion from that is, 395 00:12:40,710 --> 00:12:43,229 Oh, well, that means, 396 00:12:43,230 --> 00:12:45,119 like Western media are just the same as 397 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:46,409 Chinese media. There's someone in the 398 00:12:46,410 --> 00:12:48,119 background who has like an agenda or who 399 00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:50,069 knows what they're what they want to say. 400 00:12:50,070 --> 00:12:51,299 And so I can't trust them. 401 00:12:51,300 --> 00:12:52,349 And so I think that's a really big 402 00:12:52,350 --> 00:12:53,399 problem. 403 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:55,289 If you are someone who believes that, 404 00:12:55,290 --> 00:12:57,269 well, somehow democracy should convince 405 00:12:57,270 --> 00:12:59,009 people through the power of its 406 00:12:59,010 --> 00:13:01,169 institutions and kind of 407 00:13:01,170 --> 00:13:02,730 just the power of its existence. 408 00:13:03,750 --> 00:13:05,190 Second reason why it's bad 409 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:08,309 is that this means 410 00:13:08,310 --> 00:13:10,259 that if we imagine these really big 411 00:13:10,260 --> 00:13:12,539 problems that aren't 412 00:13:12,540 --> 00:13:14,759 necessarily real the way we imagine 413 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:16,859 them, it means that limited political 414 00:13:16,860 --> 00:13:19,259 energy is essentially 415 00:13:19,260 --> 00:13:20,849 spent on these imaginary phenomena 416 00:13:20,850 --> 00:13:22,439 instead of the real problems. 417 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:25,109 So one example for this is 418 00:13:25,110 --> 00:13:26,399 this is one of the reasons I use the 419 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:28,469 political slide earlier, because 420 00:13:28,470 --> 00:13:29,639 remember that those U.N. 421 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:30,779 principles on A.I. 422 00:13:30,780 --> 00:13:32,969 had an explicit ban on social 423 00:13:32,970 --> 00:13:35,069 scoring in AI systems. 424 00:13:35,070 --> 00:13:37,229 So it's possible that this 425 00:13:37,230 --> 00:13:38,609 is another example where this is coming 426 00:13:38,610 --> 00:13:40,229 from. But like, I have a strong hunch 427 00:13:40,230 --> 00:13:42,449 that specifically something 428 00:13:42,450 --> 00:13:44,099 that was written into there because 429 00:13:44,100 --> 00:13:45,479 people have heard about this thing in 430 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:47,099 China that doesn't exist in the way they 431 00:13:47,100 --> 00:13:48,100 imagine it. 432 00:13:49,050 --> 00:13:50,549 The problem is that, yes, there are 433 00:13:50,550 --> 00:13:52,739 things that are called social 434 00:13:52,740 --> 00:13:54,059 credit system, and there are obviously 435 00:13:54,060 --> 00:13:56,429 problems in China with like 436 00:13:56,430 --> 00:13:57,749 technology, right? 437 00:13:57,750 --> 00:13:59,459 But that doesn't. But the problem is that 438 00:13:59,460 --> 00:14:01,109 if you're banning things are putting 439 00:14:01,110 --> 00:14:03,299 energy into kind of having these 440 00:14:03,300 --> 00:14:05,069 principles banned things that just don't 441 00:14:05,070 --> 00:14:06,899 exist. You're not spending that energy on 442 00:14:06,900 --> 00:14:08,789 something else. And for example, spending 443 00:14:08,790 --> 00:14:10,109 that energy and figuring out like, for 444 00:14:10,110 --> 00:14:11,339 example, where there's issues with 445 00:14:11,340 --> 00:14:12,749 surveillance. 446 00:14:12,750 --> 00:14:14,879 So if we assume 447 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:16,619 that political energies, a zero sum game 448 00:14:16,620 --> 00:14:18,479 and energy that spend on one thing cannot 449 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:20,099 be spent, another thing this means that 450 00:14:20,100 --> 00:14:22,199 if we're trying to combat fantasies, then 451 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:24,539 we're not using those that energy 452 00:14:24,540 --> 00:14:26,159 to address real problems, which I 453 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:27,389 personally think is an issue for 454 00:14:27,390 --> 00:14:28,390 activism. 455 00:14:29,070 --> 00:14:31,199 The third reason why this is bad 456 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:33,659 if we only imagine Asia 457 00:14:33,660 --> 00:14:35,909 as this fantastical, dystopian, 458 00:14:35,910 --> 00:14:37,979 terrifying place that's so 459 00:14:37,980 --> 00:14:40,379 different, then it's also impossible 460 00:14:40,380 --> 00:14:41,579 to learn from each other. 461 00:14:42,630 --> 00:14:44,519 I think both in the good and the bad, 462 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:46,379 right? I think an example for how this is 463 00:14:46,380 --> 00:14:48,809 difficult with the good is with pandemic 464 00:14:48,810 --> 00:14:50,099 prevention. 465 00:14:50,100 --> 00:14:51,100 I did a lot of 466 00:14:52,380 --> 00:14:54,689 reporting on Taiwan's 467 00:14:54,690 --> 00:14:56,909 pandemic response personally, and 468 00:14:56,910 --> 00:14:59,549 while I wouldn't necessarily say that 469 00:14:59,550 --> 00:15:01,559 countries should simply copy the 470 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:03,029 Taiwanese model wholesale because 471 00:15:03,030 --> 00:15:05,819 obviously every country is different. 472 00:15:05,820 --> 00:15:07,619 Why Explique, after being there for six 473 00:15:07,620 --> 00:15:08,819 months, I personally do believe that 474 00:15:08,820 --> 00:15:10,199 there are things to learn. 475 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:12,779 The problem is if we constantly paint 476 00:15:12,780 --> 00:15:14,909 Asia team as like 477 00:15:14,910 --> 00:15:17,039 this whole place 478 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:18,629 as a place, it is so different and exotic 479 00:15:18,630 --> 00:15:20,489 and dystopian that we cannot learn from 480 00:15:20,490 --> 00:15:20,579 it. 481 00:15:20,580 --> 00:15:22,199 It is impossible for us to actually go 482 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:24,009 and take the bits that went well and 483 00:15:24,010 --> 00:15:26,579 there from them. I think conversely, 484 00:15:26,580 --> 00:15:28,709 it also makes it harder to learn 485 00:15:28,710 --> 00:15:30,629 from things that go wrong. 486 00:15:30,630 --> 00:15:32,669 Obviously, Asian countries are real 487 00:15:32,670 --> 00:15:34,049 countries that have social issues, 488 00:15:34,050 --> 00:15:36,359 political issues, economic problems 489 00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:39,059 they have. Most of them have capitalism 490 00:15:39,060 --> 00:15:40,199 in some form or another. 491 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:41,759 They have companies that are profit 492 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:43,439 driven and will probably lie to their 493 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:45,569 customers that will sell terrible and 494 00:15:45,570 --> 00:15:48,029 often insecure technology 495 00:15:48,030 --> 00:15:50,159 to people, including the government. 496 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:52,349 I mean, so things will go wrong, 497 00:15:52,350 --> 00:15:54,449 and I think especially with 498 00:15:54,450 --> 00:15:56,789 a lot of technology is kind of becoming 499 00:15:56,790 --> 00:15:58,979 like big. 500 00:15:58,980 --> 00:16:01,079 So one example is like 501 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:02,729 emotion recognition, which is an 502 00:16:02,730 --> 00:16:05,009 increasing second growing industry 503 00:16:05,010 --> 00:16:06,989 in China. But if these even the bad 504 00:16:06,990 --> 00:16:09,149 things that are happening, if we 505 00:16:09,150 --> 00:16:10,859 just again assume that Asia is this 506 00:16:10,860 --> 00:16:12,719 imaginary place that's really somehow not 507 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:14,159 real, which you will see in a lot of 508 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:15,869 these imaginary right, it's so dystopian, 509 00:16:15,870 --> 00:16:17,729 it's really just a fantasy. 510 00:16:17,730 --> 00:16:19,139 But but then we say, Well, it's so bad 511 00:16:19,140 --> 00:16:20,309 and so dystopian. 512 00:16:20,310 --> 00:16:22,409 It's so different from us that 513 00:16:22,410 --> 00:16:24,509 it makes it harder to look at places in 514 00:16:24,510 --> 00:16:26,639 Asia as a place that you can learn from. 515 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:28,199 I think a good counter example for this 516 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:30,269 is the Article 19 517 00:16:30,270 --> 00:16:32,399 report on emotion recognition by 518 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:34,769 Baidu Shimada and Shezi Dommett, 519 00:16:34,770 --> 00:16:36,749 which is about China's emotion 520 00:16:36,750 --> 00:16:38,489 recognition market and its implications 521 00:16:38,490 --> 00:16:40,799 for human rights. Because they really go 522 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:42,329 into what's happening in China with 523 00:16:42,330 --> 00:16:44,159 emotion recognition, and they look at the 524 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:46,439 mechanisms for why some things are going 525 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:48,149 wrong. And one of the things one of the 526 00:16:48,150 --> 00:16:49,499 examples that they're using is that 527 00:16:49,500 --> 00:16:51,539 companies are selling these technologies 528 00:16:51,540 --> 00:16:53,369 and overpromising what emotion 529 00:16:53,370 --> 00:16:54,809 recognition can do. 530 00:16:54,810 --> 00:16:56,489 And then both private actors, but also 531 00:16:56,490 --> 00:16:58,379 government actors, essentially buy into 532 00:16:58,380 --> 00:16:59,969 those promises. 533 00:16:59,970 --> 00:17:02,759 This isn't like the perfect tech dystopia 534 00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:03,959 that you might be imagining, but the 535 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:06,029 Chinese state can suddenly read 536 00:17:06,030 --> 00:17:07,499 people's emotions just by looking at 537 00:17:07,500 --> 00:17:09,209 their faces. But it is probably an 538 00:17:09,210 --> 00:17:11,068 important lesson when it comes to 539 00:17:11,069 --> 00:17:12,509 figuring out how we deal with new 540 00:17:12,510 --> 00:17:14,879 technologies, especially when companies 541 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:17,068 are trying to sell them to you and have 542 00:17:17,069 --> 00:17:19,679 clear profit incentives for overpromising 543 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:21,838 what those technologies can do so again. 544 00:17:21,839 --> 00:17:23,338 For me, one of the big problems here, 545 00:17:23,339 --> 00:17:25,348 it's it's it's hard to learn from each 546 00:17:25,349 --> 00:17:26,309 other. 547 00:17:26,310 --> 00:17:28,379 If you if the other places 548 00:17:28,380 --> 00:17:30,389 turned into this imaginary other, that's 549 00:17:30,390 --> 00:17:32,459 not really a real place or imagined as a 550 00:17:32,460 --> 00:17:34,529 real place for other 551 00:17:34,530 --> 00:17:36,959 reasons. Fourth reason why it's bad 552 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:40,409 is there's kind of this trope sometimes 553 00:17:40,410 --> 00:17:42,479 that essentially boils down to it 554 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:44,639 might be bad, but it's not China, so it's 555 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:46,019 OK. 556 00:17:46,020 --> 00:17:47,579 So this kind of, I think, is more 557 00:17:47,580 --> 00:17:49,829 narrowly about tech dystopia 558 00:17:49,830 --> 00:17:51,689 that we imagine about China. 559 00:17:51,690 --> 00:17:53,699 I think a very good example of this is 560 00:17:53,700 --> 00:17:55,259 some of the arguments that Facebook has 561 00:17:55,260 --> 00:17:57,389 been making in the past because over 562 00:17:57,390 --> 00:17:59,609 the past few years, I 563 00:17:59,610 --> 00:18:01,319 have an example here from TechCrunch with 564 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:03,869 a quote Mark Zuckerberg in 2019, 565 00:18:03,870 --> 00:18:05,280 where he essentially said 566 00:18:06,750 --> 00:18:09,089 that you shouldn't be regulating 567 00:18:09,090 --> 00:18:11,489 American tech companies 568 00:18:11,490 --> 00:18:13,649 because if you clip the wings of 569 00:18:13,650 --> 00:18:15,659 the good guys, then the bad guys from 570 00:18:15,660 --> 00:18:16,569 China are winning, right? 571 00:18:16,570 --> 00:18:18,419 So this idea that there is like this 572 00:18:18,420 --> 00:18:20,489 incredibly bad dystopia and 573 00:18:20,490 --> 00:18:22,409 that maybe Facebook has its issues. 574 00:18:22,410 --> 00:18:24,539 But if you break them up and you 575 00:18:24,540 --> 00:18:26,639 control them and regulate them, then the 576 00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:27,819 evil Chinese are going to come. 577 00:18:27,820 --> 00:18:29,429 And that's just going to be so much worse 578 00:18:29,430 --> 00:18:32,009 when in reality, honestly, 579 00:18:32,010 --> 00:18:33,719 both the U.S. and China have, like Big 580 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:36,119 Tech companies that probably all suck in 581 00:18:36,120 --> 00:18:38,439 their own ways, and it's unclear 582 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:40,529 if they necessarily want us like 583 00:18:40,530 --> 00:18:42,629 good or worse, like worse or better than 584 00:18:42,630 --> 00:18:43,199 the other. 585 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:45,389 Like the grand scheme of things. 586 00:18:45,390 --> 00:18:46,979 And I think importantly, this is 587 00:18:46,980 --> 00:18:48,389 essentially being weaponized, right? 588 00:18:48,390 --> 00:18:49,979 So Facebook, in this case is really 589 00:18:49,980 --> 00:18:51,719 trying to paper over its own problems and 590 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:53,639 trying to fend off regulation because 591 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:55,589 they're saying, Well, we're not perfect, 592 00:18:55,590 --> 00:18:57,149 but at least we're not China. 593 00:18:57,150 --> 00:18:58,679 And so this is, I think, really a really 594 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:00,779 dangerous, dangerous thing as 595 00:19:00,780 --> 00:19:02,849 well. I think the other thing in 596 00:19:02,850 --> 00:19:04,379 addition to that is also that it makes it 597 00:19:04,380 --> 00:19:06,809 easier to downplay problems 598 00:19:06,810 --> 00:19:08,549 that happen with technology, for example, 599 00:19:08,550 --> 00:19:10,499 in the realm of surveillance and because 600 00:19:10,500 --> 00:19:12,029 it's great for companies for them to be 601 00:19:12,030 --> 00:19:13,709 always able to say, well, maybe this 602 00:19:13,710 --> 00:19:15,389 isn't great, but there's still China, 603 00:19:15,390 --> 00:19:16,679 which is so much worse. 604 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:18,299 And you've heard about it because in the 605 00:19:18,300 --> 00:19:20,159 back of the of people's minds, there's 606 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:23,009 always this dystopia 607 00:19:23,010 --> 00:19:25,289 that they haven't visited and haven't 608 00:19:25,290 --> 00:19:26,519 really seen, but they somehow have like 609 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:27,749 this vague image of like how it's 610 00:19:27,750 --> 00:19:29,519 terrible that everyone's being surveilled 611 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:31,409 and all your data is being vacuumed up. 612 00:19:31,410 --> 00:19:33,359 And so again, this is probably giving 613 00:19:33,360 --> 00:19:35,759 power to the wrong people and 614 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:37,919 makes it harder to address problems that 615 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:38,920 are happening. 616 00:19:39,900 --> 00:19:41,669 The fifth reason why it's bad and again, 617 00:19:41,670 --> 00:19:43,649 this is a point that's more about China 618 00:19:43,650 --> 00:19:45,449 than about Asia, which I think is often 619 00:19:45,450 --> 00:19:47,699 counterintuitive is that you might 620 00:19:47,700 --> 00:19:48,869 be doing the Chinese government's 621 00:19:48,870 --> 00:19:50,099 propaganda work for them. 622 00:19:50,100 --> 00:19:51,929 If you're kind of perpetuating some of 623 00:19:51,930 --> 00:19:54,059 these myths. I think especially the 624 00:19:54,060 --> 00:19:56,399 social credit system is a good example 625 00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:58,169 of this. But there's also other things 626 00:19:58,170 --> 00:20:00,449 when essentially the power 627 00:20:00,450 --> 00:20:02,609 of technology that the Chinese 628 00:20:02,610 --> 00:20:03,719 government has access to gets 629 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:05,570 overexaggerated because. 630 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:08,419 Often this writing comes from people who 631 00:20:08,420 --> 00:20:09,739 think that they're warning against really 632 00:20:09,740 --> 00:20:11,029 dangerous things that are happening in 633 00:20:11,030 --> 00:20:13,279 China. Often these people are people who 634 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:14,329 think critically of the Chinese 635 00:20:14,330 --> 00:20:14,959 government. 636 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:16,669 The problem is that they're making the 637 00:20:16,670 --> 00:20:18,169 Chinese government look much more 638 00:20:18,170 --> 00:20:20,419 powerful than they actually are, right? 639 00:20:20,420 --> 00:20:22,609 And so they're kind of creating this 640 00:20:22,610 --> 00:20:24,469 image of like a really powerful and 641 00:20:24,470 --> 00:20:25,879 threatening actor. 642 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:27,679 And essentially, they're making the 643 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:28,939 government look much more powerful than 644 00:20:28,940 --> 00:20:30,139 they are. 645 00:20:30,140 --> 00:20:31,699 And so if one of the aims of the 646 00:20:31,700 --> 00:20:33,889 government is to make people scared, then 647 00:20:33,890 --> 00:20:36,049 by telling these stories that when 648 00:20:36,050 --> 00:20:37,909 they are not real, like you're scaring 649 00:20:37,910 --> 00:20:39,109 people unnecessarily. So that's like, 650 00:20:39,110 --> 00:20:40,879 again, another reason for why these 651 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:42,019 things should be factual. 652 00:20:43,220 --> 00:20:44,220 So 653 00:20:45,530 --> 00:20:46,530 what now? 654 00:20:47,510 --> 00:20:49,670 Honestly, I don't know. 655 00:20:50,690 --> 00:20:52,759 I think one of 656 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:54,169 the reasons I wanted to do this talk is 657 00:20:54,170 --> 00:20:55,219 that I think it's important that we have 658 00:20:55,220 --> 00:20:56,359 a conversation about this. 659 00:20:56,360 --> 00:20:58,369 I think it's really important that we 660 00:20:58,370 --> 00:21:00,859 have a conversation about the fact that 661 00:21:00,860 --> 00:21:03,169 somehow people belief, but somehow things 662 00:21:03,170 --> 00:21:05,629 have turned to facts that just are 663 00:21:05,630 --> 00:21:07,849 complete bullshit, like they're 664 00:21:07,850 --> 00:21:09,529 just made up things that read like that 665 00:21:09,530 --> 00:21:11,329 come from a science fiction novel and 666 00:21:11,330 --> 00:21:12,349 they are made up. 667 00:21:12,350 --> 00:21:13,909 But somehow they've turned to things that 668 00:21:13,910 --> 00:21:15,769 people just believe about Asia as fact. 669 00:21:15,770 --> 00:21:16,789 And when you tell them that they're 670 00:21:16,790 --> 00:21:18,169 wrong, they get mad at you and tell you 671 00:21:18,170 --> 00:21:19,969 that you're like a shill for the Chinese 672 00:21:19,970 --> 00:21:21,049 government. 673 00:21:21,050 --> 00:21:22,429 I'm not saying that there aren't bad 674 00:21:22,430 --> 00:21:23,669 things happening, right? 675 00:21:23,670 --> 00:21:25,669 I'm saying that we should not be 676 00:21:25,670 --> 00:21:27,829 believing the things that 677 00:21:27,830 --> 00:21:29,479 are not actually happening because we 678 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:30,919 need to be talking about the real problem 679 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:32,449 instead of the imaginary problems. 680 00:21:33,650 --> 00:21:35,809 But as I mentioned earlier, we've kind 681 00:21:35,810 --> 00:21:37,969 of learned in the last two years how hard 682 00:21:37,970 --> 00:21:40,309 it is to just launch, like these really 683 00:21:40,310 --> 00:21:42,499 set in stone narratives that have become 684 00:21:42,500 --> 00:21:44,569 fact in people's minds, even though 685 00:21:44,570 --> 00:21:46,519 they're not. And so I don't have an 686 00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:47,119 answer to that. 687 00:21:47,120 --> 00:21:49,249 So I can't like I don't have an answer 688 00:21:49,250 --> 00:21:50,719 for how we get rid of this and how we 689 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:51,720 stop doing this. 690 00:21:53,510 --> 00:21:55,579 And I don't have an answer for how 691 00:21:55,580 --> 00:21:57,769 we have a better tech 692 00:21:57,770 --> 00:21:59,959 discourse that includes Asia as a real 693 00:21:59,960 --> 00:22:01,939 place and includes people in Asia as 694 00:22:01,940 --> 00:22:04,159 people who have problems and are just 695 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:05,899 going about their lives in a regular way, 696 00:22:05,900 --> 00:22:07,489 like people in Europe or the United 697 00:22:07,490 --> 00:22:09,949 States or America more broadly. 698 00:22:09,950 --> 00:22:12,139 I think one thing 699 00:22:12,140 --> 00:22:14,269 that I do have is that 700 00:22:15,470 --> 00:22:17,599 I want to give you 701 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:19,729 some suggestions for 702 00:22:19,730 --> 00:22:21,109 getting a sense of whether something 703 00:22:21,110 --> 00:22:23,329 you're reading might not be entirely 704 00:22:23,330 --> 00:22:24,529 accurate. 705 00:22:24,530 --> 00:22:25,530 This is 706 00:22:26,780 --> 00:22:29,329 this list is primarily based on 707 00:22:29,330 --> 00:22:31,309 a conversation that I had for a podcast 708 00:22:31,310 --> 00:22:33,799 with Shazia Ahmed. So thanks and 709 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:34,909 most credits for this. 710 00:22:34,910 --> 00:22:37,879 To her, honestly, it's 711 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:39,679 the podcast episode was referenced in an 712 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:40,669 earlier slide. 713 00:22:40,670 --> 00:22:42,079 Since this is a video, I can just tell 714 00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:43,399 you to go back and look at that slide 715 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:45,259 again. So that's great. 716 00:22:45,260 --> 00:22:47,419 So essentially, it's what 717 00:22:47,420 --> 00:22:49,549 we were talking about and that's in that 718 00:22:49,550 --> 00:22:51,709 podcast episode was how do you 719 00:22:51,710 --> 00:22:52,939 read the news about China? 720 00:22:52,940 --> 00:22:54,589 So how should you read the news if you 721 00:22:54,590 --> 00:22:57,109 yourself are not entirely sure 722 00:22:57,110 --> 00:22:58,429 what's going on? 723 00:22:58,430 --> 00:23:00,589 And how do you get a sense of 724 00:23:00,590 --> 00:23:01,909 whether this is something that's accurate 725 00:23:01,910 --> 00:23:03,349 or whether it's one of these fairy tales 726 00:23:03,350 --> 00:23:05,089 just that's just being told. 727 00:23:05,090 --> 00:23:07,309 And so in this context, in particular, 728 00:23:07,310 --> 00:23:08,899 we were speaking about social credit 729 00:23:08,900 --> 00:23:11,179 system as a specific example, 730 00:23:11,180 --> 00:23:12,619 and her work on it is really great. 731 00:23:12,620 --> 00:23:14,900 So I very much recommend her writing. 732 00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:18,349 So the first thing is that a warning 733 00:23:18,350 --> 00:23:20,329 sign is usually when there are repeat 734 00:23:20,330 --> 00:23:22,519 anecdotes and you hear about 735 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:24,619 exactly the same thing over and over 736 00:23:24,620 --> 00:23:25,749 and over. 737 00:23:25,750 --> 00:23:27,649 And the example that she used at the 738 00:23:27,650 --> 00:23:29,719 time, I think, was someone being 739 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:31,189 banned from registering for a particular 740 00:23:31,190 --> 00:23:33,319 university because of social 741 00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:34,909 credit like and it was all very vague. 742 00:23:34,910 --> 00:23:36,079 It was not very clear. 743 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:38,149 And you, if you looked at all the both 744 00:23:38,150 --> 00:23:39,199 the Chinese and the the foreign 745 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:41,299 reporting, you could tell that the 746 00:23:41,300 --> 00:23:42,889 anecdote itself was always the same. 747 00:23:42,890 --> 00:23:45,199 It was always exactly the same thing 748 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:47,239 in small details got changed. 749 00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:48,499 But if this was really a thing that was 750 00:23:48,500 --> 00:23:50,749 happening, then there should be more 751 00:23:50,750 --> 00:23:52,159 people who this is happening to, right? 752 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:53,659 So if there's a phenomenon happening in 753 00:23:53,660 --> 00:23:55,099 China, which is a massive country with a 754 00:23:55,100 --> 00:23:57,169 lot of people there, these things should 755 00:23:57,170 --> 00:23:58,369 be happening to multiple people. 756 00:23:58,370 --> 00:24:00,109 So if there's kind of always the same 757 00:24:00,110 --> 00:24:01,609 thing that keeps being brought up the 758 00:24:01,610 --> 00:24:04,129 same, always the single same example, 759 00:24:04,130 --> 00:24:06,319 then something something is off, 760 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:08,809 right? It's possible that like something 761 00:24:08,810 --> 00:24:10,400 genuinely happened to that person 762 00:24:11,420 --> 00:24:12,889 and something maybe went wrong or 763 00:24:12,890 --> 00:24:14,089 something bad happened. 764 00:24:14,090 --> 00:24:16,339 But it's really the same thing over 765 00:24:16,340 --> 00:24:17,539 and over again. It's probably not 766 00:24:17,540 --> 00:24:18,709 something that's happening all over the 767 00:24:18,710 --> 00:24:20,179 country. 768 00:24:20,180 --> 00:24:22,279 Secondly is 769 00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:24,379 her advice at the time was to look 770 00:24:24,380 --> 00:24:26,479 at sources and figure out 771 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:28,219 whether most of the sources in a 772 00:24:28,220 --> 00:24:30,319 particular text are in English or whether 773 00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:32,059 that person. The article is actually 774 00:24:32,060 --> 00:24:34,549 referencing Chinese language sources 775 00:24:34,550 --> 00:24:35,749 because one thing that has happened with 776 00:24:35,750 --> 00:24:37,399 social credit and I think this is 777 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:39,589 particularly insidious 778 00:24:39,590 --> 00:24:41,719 is that a lot of the 779 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:44,029 reporting just referenced other 780 00:24:44,030 --> 00:24:46,549 English reporting that was already wrong. 781 00:24:46,550 --> 00:24:48,679 And so there was kind of like the circle 782 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:50,299 of credibility where people were able to 783 00:24:50,300 --> 00:24:51,799 kind of repeatedly reference other 784 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:53,839 people, have written wrong things and use 785 00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:55,429 those as sources. 786 00:24:55,430 --> 00:24:57,259 And then it's like with the Asian contact 787 00:24:57,260 --> 00:24:58,189 tracing thing, right? 788 00:24:58,190 --> 00:25:00,049 Like it was the example that I used 789 00:25:00,050 --> 00:25:02,329 earlier was kind of just used 790 00:25:02,330 --> 00:25:03,799 in this New York Times lead. 791 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:05,329 And so suddenly you have the New York 792 00:25:05,330 --> 00:25:05,559 Times. 793 00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:07,819 Times verifying somehow 794 00:25:07,820 --> 00:25:09,799 that it is indeed there's indeed this 795 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:11,539 massive digital contact tracing thing 796 00:25:11,540 --> 00:25:13,039 going on in Asia without really going 797 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:14,029 into specifics. 798 00:25:14,030 --> 00:25:16,249 So often, local 799 00:25:16,250 --> 00:25:17,929 sources and local language sources are 800 00:25:17,930 --> 00:25:19,789 especially important in China. 801 00:25:19,790 --> 00:25:21,499 One thing again is also that it's often 802 00:25:21,500 --> 00:25:23,719 important to be like, for example, 803 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:25,099 if you're saying a policy is happening, 804 00:25:25,100 --> 00:25:27,349 then like there is that are going 805 00:25:27,350 --> 00:25:29,749 to be a document like no bureaucracy 806 00:25:29,750 --> 00:25:31,879 produces like as many documents as 807 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:33,529 like the Chinese state bureaucracy. 808 00:25:33,530 --> 00:25:35,299 And so there will be original language 809 00:25:35,300 --> 00:25:36,649 documents that describe this policy. 810 00:25:36,650 --> 00:25:38,809 And so so those unless it's leaked. 811 00:25:38,810 --> 00:25:39,949 And so there ought to be something that 812 00:25:39,950 --> 00:25:41,369 you can describe. 813 00:25:41,370 --> 00:25:42,829 And thirdly, it's important that these 814 00:25:42,830 --> 00:25:44,719 sources are contextualized, right? 815 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:46,639 So just because, for instance, you've 816 00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:49,189 read a translation 817 00:25:49,190 --> 00:25:51,439 of a Chinese government document or 818 00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:53,479 a Taiwanese government document or like, 819 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:54,709 I don't know, a Japanese government 820 00:25:54,710 --> 00:25:55,999 document doesn't necessarily mean you 821 00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:58,279 really understand what's going on. 822 00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:00,379 Like, as a political scientist, 823 00:26:00,380 --> 00:26:01,789 I primarily studied Asia. 824 00:26:01,790 --> 00:26:03,889 So when I read a German law, I'm 825 00:26:03,890 --> 00:26:05,329 also like, Well, this is my mother 826 00:26:05,330 --> 00:26:06,769 tongue, but to really understand what's 827 00:26:06,770 --> 00:26:08,209 going on. 828 00:26:08,210 --> 00:26:09,349 So it's important that these things are 829 00:26:09,350 --> 00:26:10,699 contextualized right and put into that 830 00:26:10,700 --> 00:26:11,779 political context. 831 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:14,209 Fourthly, and I think this this incredibly 832 00:26:14,210 --> 00:26:16,159 important is that it's really important 833 00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:18,889 for all of these tech ideas 834 00:26:18,890 --> 00:26:21,589 that there is ideally 835 00:26:21,590 --> 00:26:23,779 you want specific research 836 00:26:23,780 --> 00:26:25,579 or reporting on the ground, right? 837 00:26:25,580 --> 00:26:27,619 So you will ideally want probably one 838 00:26:27,620 --> 00:26:29,719 reporting where they've spoken to either 839 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:31,129 researchers who have done work on the 840 00:26:31,130 --> 00:26:33,349 ground or 841 00:26:33,350 --> 00:26:34,999 to actually have done their own reporting 842 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:36,079 on the ground. So there are some good 843 00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:37,519 examples of this, for example, also with 844 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:38,719 social credit, there's been some really 845 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:40,999 good reporting in Germany as well 846 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:42,409 on this, where people really went and 847 00:26:42,410 --> 00:26:43,789 looked at the specifics and really what 848 00:26:43,790 --> 00:26:45,499 was happening to people, right? 849 00:26:45,500 --> 00:26:47,509 So I'm not I don't I don't want to just 850 00:26:47,510 --> 00:26:49,549 media bash like these good things exist. 851 00:26:49,550 --> 00:26:51,709 It's just that they are much harder 852 00:26:51,710 --> 00:26:54,109 to remember. So specific 853 00:26:54,110 --> 00:26:55,759 reporting and research on the ground to 854 00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:57,469 really give you an idea of what 855 00:26:57,470 --> 00:26:59,629 specifically is happening and what this 856 00:26:59,630 --> 00:27:01,759 technology really looks like, right? 857 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:03,229 Like how it's really working and its 858 00:27:03,230 --> 00:27:04,230 implementation. 859 00:27:05,060 --> 00:27:06,859 Another important caveat I think that's 860 00:27:06,860 --> 00:27:08,569 important to bear in mind is that people 861 00:27:08,570 --> 00:27:10,459 don't always understand a system just 862 00:27:10,460 --> 00:27:12,109 because they're subject to it. 863 00:27:12,110 --> 00:27:14,179 So just like if I would 864 00:27:14,180 --> 00:27:16,369 go out onto the streets now and 865 00:27:16,370 --> 00:27:18,259 maybe start asking someone on the streets 866 00:27:18,260 --> 00:27:20,509 in Berlin about like German, like German 867 00:27:20,510 --> 00:27:22,879 monetary policy and inflation, 868 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:24,709 it is quite unlikely that person will. 869 00:27:24,710 --> 00:27:26,899 I mean, if I 870 00:27:26,900 --> 00:27:29,059 ask someone your university, maybe I'll 871 00:27:29,060 --> 00:27:30,469 catch an econ student. 872 00:27:30,470 --> 00:27:31,969 But generally it's quite unlikely that 873 00:27:31,970 --> 00:27:33,259 that person will understand what's going 874 00:27:33,260 --> 00:27:34,729 on. So it's also important that just 875 00:27:34,730 --> 00:27:36,319 because someone is in country doesn't 876 00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:38,719 necessarily mean the tender stand laws, 877 00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:40,309 regulations institutions, right? 878 00:27:40,310 --> 00:27:42,469 So I think this also goes for like, don't 879 00:27:42,470 --> 00:27:44,749 believe what random people tell you about 880 00:27:44,750 --> 00:27:46,669 like Asia, just because they live there 881 00:27:46,670 --> 00:27:48,199 like that doesn't necessarily qualify 882 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:49,879 them to know what's happening. 883 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:52,009 This goes for foreigners, but also 884 00:27:52,010 --> 00:27:53,719 for local people. Obviously, they will 885 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:55,639 know what the experience is like a big 886 00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:57,379 spirit, like living with certain things. 887 00:27:57,380 --> 00:27:59,689 But governments in 888 00:27:59,690 --> 00:28:01,249 Asia and the entire world are often 889 00:28:01,250 --> 00:28:02,959 really bad at explaining things to their 890 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:04,939 citizens. So you really can't blame 891 00:28:04,940 --> 00:28:06,289 citizens for not necessarily 892 00:28:06,290 --> 00:28:07,609 understanding what is going on. 893 00:28:09,230 --> 00:28:10,699 I think another important thing again, 894 00:28:10,700 --> 00:28:13,009 this is probably more China than Iraq 895 00:28:13,010 --> 00:28:15,079 point is to 896 00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:17,209 be wary of extrapolating from particular 897 00:28:17,210 --> 00:28:19,279 locations to the entire country. 898 00:28:20,330 --> 00:28:22,729 This sounds like a very simple 899 00:28:22,730 --> 00:28:24,529 and maybe stupidly simple statement, but 900 00:28:24,530 --> 00:28:26,209 China is really big. 901 00:28:26,210 --> 00:28:28,039 Asia is really big. 902 00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:29,359 And so, for example, if you hear that 903 00:28:29,360 --> 00:28:31,579 this digital contact tracing in 904 00:28:31,580 --> 00:28:33,379 Seoul, you shouldn't assume that it's 905 00:28:33,380 --> 00:28:34,789 something that's happening in the entire 906 00:28:34,790 --> 00:28:36,709 continent of Asia. 907 00:28:36,710 --> 00:28:38,539 You also can't necessarily assume that 908 00:28:38,540 --> 00:28:40,279 it's something that's happening in the 909 00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:42,679 entire country of South Korea 910 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:44,839 because in some places, for 911 00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:46,729 example, public health is like maybe like 912 00:28:46,730 --> 00:28:48,769 a state thing or municipalities and 913 00:28:48,770 --> 00:28:50,989 cities are doing a lot of the work. 914 00:28:50,990 --> 00:28:52,759 So again, it's really important to be 915 00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:54,889 wary of just assuming that 916 00:28:54,890 --> 00:28:55,849 because something is happening in a 917 00:28:55,850 --> 00:28:57,739 particular city, that it's something 918 00:28:57,740 --> 00:28:59,420 that's happening that entire country 919 00:29:00,590 --> 00:29:01,849 again. Also something especially 920 00:29:01,850 --> 00:29:03,469 important in China because the Chinese 921 00:29:03,470 --> 00:29:05,029 government often has kind of these 922 00:29:05,030 --> 00:29:06,979 experiments that are happening on the 923 00:29:06,980 --> 00:29:08,359 local level where they have like policy 924 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:10,129 experiments and implement a policy in one 925 00:29:10,130 --> 00:29:12,349 particular city first or 926 00:29:12,350 --> 00:29:13,699 implement different versions of it in 927 00:29:13,700 --> 00:29:14,989 different cities. 928 00:29:14,990 --> 00:29:16,789 And so especially in those situations, 929 00:29:16,790 --> 00:29:18,049 just because something happens in one 930 00:29:18,050 --> 00:29:20,029 place doesn't necessarily mean that it's 931 00:29:20,030 --> 00:29:21,349 happening everywhere and also doesn't 932 00:29:21,350 --> 00:29:23,179 mean that just because one experiment is 933 00:29:23,180 --> 00:29:24,829 happening one place, that that's the one 934 00:29:24,830 --> 00:29:25,849 that's going to be implemented in the 935 00:29:25,850 --> 00:29:26,839 entire country, right? 936 00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:28,789 If the experiments go badly, they might 937 00:29:28,790 --> 00:29:30,799 just be ended and then nothing ever gets 938 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:33,349 adopted on a country level. 939 00:29:33,350 --> 00:29:34,489 And I think last year, one thing that's 940 00:29:34,490 --> 00:29:36,259 very important is that it's important to 941 00:29:36,260 --> 00:29:38,269 distinguish between facts and 942 00:29:38,270 --> 00:29:39,619 speculation. 943 00:29:39,620 --> 00:29:41,389 And so maybe this is one thing that you 944 00:29:41,390 --> 00:29:43,459 might be able to catch on to if there's 945 00:29:43,460 --> 00:29:45,139 things that are very vague. 946 00:29:45,140 --> 00:29:46,249 It might be worth trying to figure out 947 00:29:46,250 --> 00:29:48,019 whether this is describing something 948 00:29:48,020 --> 00:29:49,489 that's actually happening or whether it's 949 00:29:49,490 --> 00:29:51,709 something that might be happening, right? 950 00:29:51,710 --> 00:29:53,839 Because often, obviously 951 00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:55,909 technologies that exist 952 00:29:55,910 --> 00:29:57,769 in the present might not be used for 953 00:29:57,770 --> 00:29:59,569 particular nefarious purposes. 954 00:29:59,570 --> 00:30:01,249 But there is a potential for them to be 955 00:30:01,250 --> 00:30:02,449 used that way, and I think it's very 956 00:30:02,450 --> 00:30:04,189 important to be distinguishing between 957 00:30:04,190 --> 00:30:05,469 the possibilities. 958 00:30:05,470 --> 00:30:07,569 The way something could be abused and 959 00:30:07,570 --> 00:30:09,519 the facts in the present, were it 960 00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:11,619 actually like the way 961 00:30:11,620 --> 00:30:13,479 it maybe is already being abused or is 962 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:14,480 not being abused? 963 00:30:16,180 --> 00:30:18,559 So yes, thank you. 964 00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:21,489 I'm sorry that was a bit of a rant, 965 00:30:21,490 --> 00:30:23,229 but I really genuinely think it's 966 00:30:23,230 --> 00:30:24,969 important that we think about this 967 00:30:24,970 --> 00:30:26,439 critically, that we have a conversation 968 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:28,629 about it and especially 969 00:30:28,630 --> 00:30:30,129 when we're talking about authoritarian 970 00:30:30,130 --> 00:30:32,229 countries such as China, 971 00:30:32,230 --> 00:30:34,359 that it's important that we talk 972 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:36,939 about the bad things that do exist 973 00:30:36,940 --> 00:30:38,829 and don't just somehow focus all of our 974 00:30:38,830 --> 00:30:40,989 attention and political energy on things 975 00:30:40,990 --> 00:30:42,819 that are not that don't exist because 976 00:30:42,820 --> 00:30:44,889 there are real problems, there are 977 00:30:44,890 --> 00:30:46,179 real problems everywhere in the world. 978 00:30:46,180 --> 00:30:48,459 And I think overall it's better to spend 979 00:30:48,460 --> 00:30:50,529 political energy on solving problems 980 00:30:50,530 --> 00:30:53,139 that exist instead of making them up 981 00:30:53,140 --> 00:30:54,459 out of thin air. 982 00:30:54,460 --> 00:30:56,769 So, yeah. 983 00:30:56,770 --> 00:30:58,599 Special thanks to Shazia Ahmed. 984 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:00,519 Virginia KCON and how hard and a few 985 00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:01,689 others for a really productive 986 00:31:01,690 --> 00:31:03,489 conversations about this topic. 987 00:31:03,490 --> 00:31:04,539 This argument could have been more 988 00:31:04,540 --> 00:31:06,489 coherent, but I hope that maybe it makes 989 00:31:06,490 --> 00:31:08,169 you think a bit and that maybe we can 990 00:31:08,170 --> 00:31:10,299 start having a conversation 991 00:31:10,300 --> 00:31:13,479 about why people believe 992 00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:14,480 some of these favored. 993 00:31:19,470 --> 00:31:20,939 Yeah, hi. 994 00:31:20,940 --> 00:31:23,339 So spoilers, 995 00:31:23,340 --> 00:31:25,469 what you just saw was recording. 996 00:31:25,470 --> 00:31:27,599 So just a quick note, since a few days 997 00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:29,159 have passed, since that recording, one 998 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:31,049 thing that I wanted to quickly add is 999 00:31:31,050 --> 00:31:33,359 that I talked a lot about how 1000 00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:34,499 you can recognize 1001 00:31:35,580 --> 00:31:36,989 writing about tech in Asia. 1002 00:31:36,990 --> 00:31:39,209 That is probably not that great or 1003 00:31:39,210 --> 00:31:40,589 it might be missing out on some of the 1004 00:31:40,590 --> 00:31:42,809 facts. So I wanted to also briefly give 1005 00:31:42,810 --> 00:31:44,999 some to counter examples 1006 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:46,619 that are kind of on opposite ends of the 1007 00:31:46,620 --> 00:31:47,879 methodological spectrum. 1008 00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:50,159 One is basically any 1009 00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:52,739 of their bailiff's work that specifically 1010 00:31:52,740 --> 00:31:54,929 has a report in the camps 1011 00:31:54,930 --> 00:31:56,789 erm, China's high tech penal colony that 1012 00:31:56,790 --> 00:31:59,219 was published a few weeks ago 1013 00:31:59,220 --> 00:32:01,079 there in Belarus. An anthropologist, I'm 1014 00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:02,279 just reading the book myself and about 1015 00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:03,569 halfway through. 1016 00:32:03,570 --> 00:32:05,669 But even with sensitive topics such 1017 00:32:05,670 --> 00:32:07,449 as the changing of the camps, you managed 1018 00:32:07,450 --> 00:32:09,239 to really get an incredible level of 1019 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:10,859 detail with regards to especially the 1020 00:32:10,860 --> 00:32:12,959 experience of people in the camps and how 1021 00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:14,910 technology is used to 1022 00:32:16,350 --> 00:32:18,359 kind of make that experience even worse. 1023 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:21,029 I mean, the other example is 1024 00:32:21,030 --> 00:32:23,369 Margaret Roberts book Censored from 2018, 1025 00:32:23,370 --> 00:32:25,739 which is a much more focused 1026 00:32:25,740 --> 00:32:28,019 quantitative book that analyzes 1027 00:32:28,020 --> 00:32:30,489 the way Chinese censorship works online. 1028 00:32:30,490 --> 00:32:32,999 So these are, I think, two examples 1029 00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:35,129 of different approaches to how you can 1030 00:32:35,130 --> 00:32:38,339 do writing or research on technology, 1031 00:32:38,340 --> 00:32:39,809 even in a very difficult context like 1032 00:32:39,810 --> 00:32:41,429 China very well. 1033 00:32:41,430 --> 00:32:43,259 And maybe reading those can give you a 1034 00:32:43,260 --> 00:32:45,449 sense of the level of detail that we 1035 00:32:45,450 --> 00:32:47,130 should be able to expect from writing. 1036 00:32:48,510 --> 00:32:50,849 Even even in certain 1037 00:32:50,850 --> 00:32:52,229 countries like China, even if things, 1038 00:32:52,230 --> 00:32:53,429 although things have obviously gotten 1039 00:32:53,430 --> 00:32:54,329 harder. 1040 00:32:54,330 --> 00:32:56,279 Yeah, sorry. So I just wanted to quickly 1041 00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:57,900 add that on before starting the Q&A. 1042 00:32:59,940 --> 00:33:02,369 Yes, thank you very much for the entire 1043 00:33:02,370 --> 00:33:04,470 talk and also for adding that right now. 1044 00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:07,919 So if you have any questions for 1045 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:09,839 Catherine, you can ask them on Twitter at 1046 00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:12,189 Macedone using the hashtag c3X 1047 00:33:12,190 --> 00:33:14,249 Sign or on hearkened 1048 00:33:14,250 --> 00:33:16,529 using the channel or C three 1049 00:33:16,530 --> 00:33:18,239 dash sign. 1050 00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:21,119 And now we have about 12 more minutes 1051 00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:23,189 for some questions and the first one. 1052 00:33:23,190 --> 00:33:25,379 The first fuel already came 1053 00:33:25,380 --> 00:33:27,479 in. The first one is have you seen the 1054 00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:30,119 documentary Coded Bias, where the social 1055 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:31,919 credit system in China is compared to 1056 00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:34,169 mass surveillance and air applications 1057 00:33:34,170 --> 00:33:35,609 in the western world? 1058 00:33:35,610 --> 00:33:37,529 If so, would you say that the content of 1059 00:33:37,530 --> 00:33:39,510 the documentary is not factual? 1060 00:33:40,620 --> 00:33:43,019 I haven't seen the documentary. 1061 00:33:43,020 --> 00:33:44,939 I also hope that maybe we cannot make 1062 00:33:44,940 --> 00:33:46,829 this entire Q&A about the social credit 1063 00:33:46,830 --> 00:33:48,929 system, because, like I've said, a lot of 1064 00:33:48,930 --> 00:33:50,639 people who really are working on it have 1065 00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:52,719 been doing a lot of debunking in the last 1066 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:53,249 two years. 1067 00:33:53,250 --> 00:33:55,589 And I also think that 1068 00:33:55,590 --> 00:33:57,119 a lot of these are a lot of the people 1069 00:33:57,120 --> 00:33:58,199 that are also doing research on the 1070 00:33:58,200 --> 00:33:59,339 topic. 1071 00:33:59,340 --> 00:34:01,679 And I am I think honestly, 1072 00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:02,939 if you're interested in getting a sense 1073 00:34:02,940 --> 00:34:04,889 of what really what is going on. 1074 00:34:04,890 --> 00:34:06,569 Seek out those sources of people who have 1075 00:34:06,570 --> 00:34:08,279 been on the ground and who have done 1076 00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:09,749 fieldwork in China and who have spoken to 1077 00:34:09,750 --> 00:34:11,849 people on the ground and can tell 1078 00:34:11,850 --> 00:34:13,919 you in as much specific details as 1079 00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:15,509 possible weapons implementations look 1080 00:34:15,510 --> 00:34:17,669 like. So I would strongly encourage kind 1081 00:34:17,670 --> 00:34:20,339 of seeking out those sources and then 1082 00:34:20,340 --> 00:34:21,809 hopefully that can help people get a 1083 00:34:21,810 --> 00:34:23,939 sense of what really is going on. 1084 00:34:23,940 --> 00:34:25,589 But genuinely, there's been so much 1085 00:34:25,590 --> 00:34:27,749 material debate on these things 1086 00:34:27,750 --> 00:34:30,059 that I don't think it's necessarily 1087 00:34:30,060 --> 00:34:31,499 productive to have a conversation about, 1088 00:34:31,500 --> 00:34:32,678 like, is this particular bit? 1089 00:34:32,679 --> 00:34:33,988 Sure. Is this particular bit true? 1090 00:34:33,989 --> 00:34:36,209 Because there are like 1091 00:34:36,210 --> 00:34:37,678 there is there are things that are cults, 1092 00:34:37,679 --> 00:34:39,178 which are credit. There's many different 1093 00:34:39,179 --> 00:34:40,919 things that have that label. 1094 00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:42,809 And I think kind of going into like how 1095 00:34:42,810 --> 00:34:44,218 complex and messy the whole thing is 1096 00:34:44,219 --> 00:34:45,419 would take a piece like a two hour 1097 00:34:45,420 --> 00:34:47,609 lecture, probably from someone who has 1098 00:34:47,610 --> 00:34:49,079 done way more research on this than I 1099 00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:50,080 have. 1100 00:34:51,100 --> 00:34:53,189 Okay, that maybe leads 1101 00:34:53,190 --> 00:34:55,379 us to the second question that came in so 1102 00:34:55,380 --> 00:34:57,479 far, which was that you presented 1103 00:34:57,480 --> 00:34:59,819 us with five 1104 00:34:59,820 --> 00:35:01,859 sources debunking the Chinese social 1105 00:35:01,860 --> 00:35:03,239 credit system. Sorry, it's about the 1106 00:35:03,240 --> 00:35:05,399 system again, and the person 1107 00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:07,769 is asking that or stating 1108 00:35:07,770 --> 00:35:09,839 that they checked all those sources 1109 00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:11,399 and none of them were in the peer 1110 00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:12,959 reviewed scientific venue. 1111 00:35:15,570 --> 00:35:17,469 Can you speak to the credibility of the 1112 00:35:17,470 --> 00:35:19,050 sources or do you maybe 1113 00:35:20,130 --> 00:35:21,989 have something in general, maybe in a 1114 00:35:21,990 --> 00:35:23,399 peer reviewed journal? 1115 00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:24,639 I think they want to have it. 1116 00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:25,640 I don't know. 1117 00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:28,229 I mean, I think, for starters, I would 1118 00:35:28,230 --> 00:35:29,849 suggest having a look at the authors of 1119 00:35:29,850 --> 00:35:31,999 those articles are so for example, 1120 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:34,139 comment is I was doing research 1121 00:35:34,140 --> 00:35:36,269 in China in 2019 on the implementation 1122 00:35:36,270 --> 00:35:37,769 of social credit. 1123 00:35:37,770 --> 00:35:40,139 I know as a matter of fact that there's 1124 00:35:40,140 --> 00:35:42,329 at least I think I think I know 1125 00:35:42,330 --> 00:35:44,459 of two dissertations 1126 00:35:44,460 --> 00:35:46,439 that are being written right now and for 1127 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:48,549 which research has happened in 1128 00:35:48,550 --> 00:35:49,649 pre-pandemic. 1129 00:35:49,650 --> 00:35:51,779 But because of the way dissertations work 1130 00:35:51,780 --> 00:35:52,979 and the way research works and the way 1131 00:35:52,980 --> 00:35:54,809 academic publishing works, it's going to 1132 00:35:54,810 --> 00:35:56,969 take a long time, a bit longer, I think, 1133 00:35:56,970 --> 00:35:59,279 for those to be publicly available. 1134 00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:01,349 I think secondly, one thing that's also 1135 00:36:01,350 --> 00:36:03,719 worth noting is that one 1136 00:36:03,720 --> 00:36:06,149 impression that I have is that 1137 00:36:06,150 --> 00:36:08,369 people want research about like if 1138 00:36:08,370 --> 00:36:09,779 people want research on a thing that 1139 00:36:09,780 --> 00:36:11,039 doesn't really exist in the way they 1140 00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:13,349 imagine it, then it's quite 1141 00:36:13,350 --> 00:36:15,119 difficult, right? I think one other thing 1142 00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:16,139 where they might not be that much 1143 00:36:16,140 --> 00:36:17,569 research, it's also. 1144 00:36:17,570 --> 00:36:19,759 I was looking at social credit for 1145 00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:21,979 one paper and considering like doing 1146 00:36:21,980 --> 00:36:24,109 some work on it, a lot of 1147 00:36:24,110 --> 00:36:27,289 it is quite banal and not. 1148 00:36:27,290 --> 00:36:28,909 It was really hard to be able to tell 1149 00:36:28,910 --> 00:36:30,770 whether it really had any impact. 1150 00:36:32,300 --> 00:36:34,249 And the evidence just didn't seem to be 1151 00:36:34,250 --> 00:36:36,199 there. And so I think it's also worth 1152 00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:37,939 considering that it was a phenomenon and 1153 00:36:37,940 --> 00:36:40,099 really that impactful, except for 1154 00:36:40,100 --> 00:36:41,419 a tech discourse. 1155 00:36:41,420 --> 00:36:43,249 Then there's also very little reason for 1156 00:36:43,250 --> 00:36:45,379 empirically minded scholars doing 1157 00:36:45,380 --> 00:36:46,699 research on the ground to be doing it 1158 00:36:46,700 --> 00:36:49,189 right, so they might instead be focusing 1159 00:36:49,190 --> 00:36:51,259 on other phenomena that really do 1160 00:36:51,260 --> 00:36:53,029 impact the lives of Chinese people in 1161 00:36:53,030 --> 00:36:53,959 those situations. 1162 00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:56,749 Obviously, if people are aware of like, 1163 00:36:56,750 --> 00:36:58,819 very good like 1164 00:36:58,820 --> 00:37:00,979 empirical research that does look at 1165 00:37:00,980 --> 00:37:02,809 things, some of the various things are 1166 00:37:02,810 --> 00:37:04,339 called social credit are doing that are 1167 00:37:04,340 --> 00:37:05,719 impacting people's lives and meaningful 1168 00:37:05,720 --> 00:37:05,959 ways. 1169 00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:07,489 I'm always open and happy to be 1170 00:37:07,490 --> 00:37:09,679 corrected. I think it's just important to 1171 00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:11,359 be making these statements based on 1172 00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:13,519 specific information and like 1173 00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:15,709 actual research from the ground, because 1174 00:37:15,710 --> 00:37:17,959 anyone, anyone should know that 1175 00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:19,009 the things that are written down in 1176 00:37:19,010 --> 00:37:20,449 government documents and any comfort 1177 00:37:20,450 --> 00:37:22,579 zone, or they don't really get to tell 1178 00:37:22,580 --> 00:37:24,139 you the whole story and only a very small 1179 00:37:24,140 --> 00:37:25,140 part of the story. 1180 00:37:28,700 --> 00:37:31,249 OK, thank you very much. 1181 00:37:31,250 --> 00:37:33,829 As I see here on my machine, 1182 00:37:33,830 --> 00:37:36,319 there are no more questions. 1183 00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:37,579 I still have one. 1184 00:37:37,580 --> 00:37:40,339 Are you going to post a slide somewhere 1185 00:37:40,340 --> 00:37:42,559 after the talk or should 1186 00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:45,149 people just screenshot everything? 1187 00:37:45,150 --> 00:37:47,539 And if people weren't fast 1188 00:37:47,540 --> 00:37:49,279 enough to screenshot while I was talking 1189 00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:51,409 a little too fast, 1190 00:37:51,410 --> 00:37:53,049 I will probably. 1191 00:37:53,050 --> 00:37:54,709 I guess I can screenshot the source 1192 00:37:54,710 --> 00:37:56,479 slides and put them up on my Twitter 1193 00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:58,279 again, but I didn't have any other plans 1194 00:37:58,280 --> 00:37:59,569 for putting up the slides. 1195 00:37:59,570 --> 00:38:01,189 I think most of the other stuff was just 1196 00:38:01,190 --> 00:38:02,779 to be fun being run the pictures to have 1197 00:38:02,780 --> 00:38:04,339 something on the slide when I was 1198 00:38:04,340 --> 00:38:05,340 talking. 1199 00:38:07,010 --> 00:38:09,289 OK, great thing here, then I can just 1200 00:38:09,290 --> 00:38:11,479 recommend everyone to follow Katherine 1201 00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:13,130 on Twitter at the Katherine Tai. 1202 00:38:14,180 --> 00:38:15,919 Oh, and there's one more question, 1203 00:38:17,930 --> 00:38:19,729 which is I'll have to read it live. 1204 00:38:19,730 --> 00:38:20,629 I haven't read it before. 1205 00:38:20,630 --> 00:38:22,159 Can you speak about the challenges of 1206 00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:24,229 doing so urological research in countries 1207 00:38:24,230 --> 00:38:25,550 like Mainland China? 1208 00:38:26,900 --> 00:38:28,999 I mean, yeah, so 1209 00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:30,319 the challenges are definitely there. 1210 00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:32,599 And I think especially if you're 1211 00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:34,999 I think this is especially the case or 1212 00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:37,159 among scholars, 1213 00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:38,239 and it has been in the recent past for 1214 00:38:38,240 --> 00:38:39,799 scholars who do work in changing 1215 00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:40,820 institutions, the wiggers. 1216 00:38:41,990 --> 00:38:43,399 It's also the case that a lot of other 1217 00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:44,719 topics have become quite sensitive, 1218 00:38:44,720 --> 00:38:46,219 especially when it comes to, for 1219 00:38:46,220 --> 00:38:47,769 instance, African minorities. 1220 00:38:47,770 --> 00:38:50,299 I think a huge caveat to 1221 00:38:50,300 --> 00:38:52,519 challenges of fieldwork in China is kind 1222 00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:54,679 of the big obvious challenge is 1223 00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:56,299 that nobody can really go to China right 1224 00:38:56,300 --> 00:38:57,889 now to do fieldwork, and nobody has 1225 00:38:57,890 --> 00:39:00,439 really been able to go for two years. 1226 00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:02,659 So I think basically most knowledge 1227 00:39:02,660 --> 00:39:05,479 that we have or what I'm kind of 1228 00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:07,759 speaking on is knowledge 1229 00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:09,259 that is outdated by two years simply 1230 00:39:09,260 --> 00:39:11,359 because not much has been like people 1231 00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:12,979 were like there were a lot of things that 1232 00:39:12,980 --> 00:39:14,869 people just weren't able to do in the 1233 00:39:14,870 --> 00:39:15,870 recent past. 1234 00:39:17,510 --> 00:39:19,759 That being said, it 1235 00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:21,889 is true that foreign scholars 1236 00:39:21,890 --> 00:39:23,489 were often looked at skeptically. 1237 00:39:23,490 --> 00:39:25,999 A lot of things were still possible 1238 00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:29,029 when the pandemic hit, and 1239 00:39:29,030 --> 00:39:30,889 especially on topics that are not 1240 00:39:30,890 --> 00:39:32,209 necessarily considered politically 1241 00:39:32,210 --> 00:39:33,199 sensitive. So are instance. 1242 00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:35,839 Ethnic minorities are clearly 1243 00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:37,309 a politically sensitive topic, so that's 1244 00:39:37,310 --> 00:39:39,199 something that's probably quite difficult 1245 00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:41,089 to be doing and research on the ground on 1246 00:39:41,090 --> 00:39:43,169 scholars who work on 1247 00:39:43,170 --> 00:39:44,869 wiggers have in the past openly spoken 1248 00:39:44,870 --> 00:39:46,819 about how they stopped doing fieldwork or 1249 00:39:46,820 --> 00:39:48,199 stopped doing interviews in country 1250 00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:49,759 because they didn't like they thought it 1251 00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:52,129 would be a danger to their subjects. 1252 00:39:52,130 --> 00:39:54,289 On the other hand, topics that are not 1253 00:39:54,290 --> 00:39:55,639 necessarily considered politically 1254 00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:56,640 sensitive. 1255 00:39:57,410 --> 00:39:58,999 This probably, I would say it's likely 1256 00:39:59,000 --> 00:39:59,989 much easier. 1257 00:39:59,990 --> 00:40:02,599 And I think for, for instance, 1258 00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:04,549 social credit is not something that seems 1259 00:40:04,550 --> 00:40:06,709 particularly sensitive. 1260 00:40:06,710 --> 00:40:08,029 And it's the last time I was in China. 1261 00:40:08,030 --> 00:40:09,029 It's not really. 1262 00:40:09,030 --> 00:40:10,219 It's not really something that the government's 1263 00:40:10,220 --> 00:40:11,389 trying to keep secret. 1264 00:40:11,390 --> 00:40:12,379 It's not really something that the 1265 00:40:12,380 --> 00:40:14,059 government just like, Oh, we need to hide 1266 00:40:14,060 --> 00:40:15,859 this from the world where it's like this 1267 00:40:15,860 --> 00:40:18,169 terrible thing that's happening in China. 1268 00:40:18,170 --> 00:40:20,329 So I think, like 1269 00:40:20,330 --> 00:40:21,829 it definitely varies based on topics. 1270 00:40:21,830 --> 00:40:23,959 I think, however, that all of that is 1271 00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:25,939 also another caveat for that is that the 1272 00:40:25,940 --> 00:40:26,959 situation in China. 1273 00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:29,089 From what I hear, it's gotten 1274 00:40:29,090 --> 00:40:30,859 generally more difficult to be able to 1275 00:40:30,860 --> 00:40:33,109 speak to people because people mistrust 1276 00:40:33,110 --> 00:40:34,729 foreign scholars and journalists. 1277 00:40:34,730 --> 00:40:36,139 So there are definitely there are 1278 00:40:36,140 --> 00:40:37,609 challenges that is definitely true, 1279 00:40:37,610 --> 00:40:40,199 especially with a kind of 1280 00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:41,599 a progressive resurgence of you based 1281 00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:43,369 research on the ground. 1282 00:40:43,370 --> 00:40:44,659 So that's like a challenge for the entire 1283 00:40:44,660 --> 00:40:45,979 field. Sure. 1284 00:40:45,980 --> 00:40:48,109 I think in that sense, 1285 00:40:48,110 --> 00:40:50,269 Margaret Roberts's work and a lot 1286 00:40:50,270 --> 00:40:51,829 of the other quantitative work that's 1287 00:40:51,830 --> 00:40:53,989 happening on China are good 1288 00:40:53,990 --> 00:40:55,309 examples of other things that you can 1289 00:40:55,310 --> 00:40:57,439 still be doing. 1290 00:40:57,440 --> 00:40:59,569 And I think another 1291 00:40:59,570 --> 00:41:01,039 example is that you can work with 1292 00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:02,989 government documents, for instance. 1293 00:41:02,990 --> 00:41:04,399 And one thing the point interesting about 1294 00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:06,109 a lot of the work on Xinjiang, and this 1295 00:41:06,110 --> 00:41:07,789 is also the thing that happened during my 1296 00:41:07,790 --> 00:41:09,889 last book. So he 1297 00:41:09,890 --> 00:41:11,659 that I mentioned earlier, he uses a lot 1298 00:41:11,660 --> 00:41:12,979 of interviews. 1299 00:41:12,980 --> 00:41:14,629 But in addition, he also repeatedly 1300 00:41:14,630 --> 00:41:16,699 references government documents 1301 00:41:16,700 --> 00:41:18,589 where a lot of the phenomena with regards 1302 00:41:18,590 --> 00:41:19,939 to what's happening in Xinjiang were 1303 00:41:19,940 --> 00:41:21,799 actually being documented by the Chinese 1304 00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:23,179 government itself. 1305 00:41:23,180 --> 00:41:25,669 So yes, it's definitely a challenge, and 1306 00:41:25,670 --> 00:41:27,619 I'm not going to say it's easy. 1307 00:41:28,700 --> 00:41:30,919 And we also things 1308 00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:32,330 have probably gotten more difficult 1309 00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:34,579 and I've definitely gotten we have 1310 00:41:34,580 --> 00:41:36,619 definitely gotten more difficult, but it 1311 00:41:36,620 --> 00:41:38,299 is. And so I think that's why it's 1312 00:41:38,300 --> 00:41:39,889 important to recognize that there are 1313 00:41:39,890 --> 00:41:41,749 things that you can still, there's things 1314 00:41:41,750 --> 00:41:43,009 that you can still do, even if they're 1315 00:41:43,010 --> 00:41:45,379 not maybe the preferred options. 1316 00:41:45,380 --> 00:41:46,669 And I think in addition to that, like 1317 00:41:46,670 --> 00:41:48,769 there's even more other things that 1318 00:41:48,770 --> 00:41:49,849 you can, for example, look on social 1319 00:41:49,850 --> 00:41:51,769 media, like if there's a phenomenon that 1320 00:41:51,770 --> 00:41:54,229 affects a lot of people in China, 1321 00:41:54,230 --> 00:41:55,489 people are going to be talking about it 1322 00:41:55,490 --> 00:41:57,229 on social media, at the song of the songs 1323 00:41:57,230 --> 00:41:59,419 that are not sensitive enough to be 1324 00:41:59,420 --> 00:42:01,699 heard. There will be an enormous 1325 00:42:01,700 --> 00:42:02,929 amount of chatter, and I think a very 1326 00:42:02,930 --> 00:42:05,059 good example of this is 1327 00:42:05,060 --> 00:42:06,739 this whole idea of the Typekit is 1328 00:42:06,740 --> 00:42:08,899 companion were being 1329 00:42:08,900 --> 00:42:10,309 this fall. The Chinese government 1330 00:42:10,310 --> 00:42:12,409 actually did try to introduce a contact 1331 00:42:12,410 --> 00:42:14,539 tracing method that essentially uses 1332 00:42:14,540 --> 00:42:16,340 people's cell location 1333 00:42:18,150 --> 00:42:20,629 location to see whether they've kind of 1334 00:42:20,630 --> 00:42:22,819 met or encountered someone who 1335 00:42:22,820 --> 00:42:24,709 had it when they met them. 1336 00:42:24,710 --> 00:42:26,299 But the system was so sensitive that 1337 00:42:26,300 --> 00:42:28,399 people kept kind of getting red 1338 00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:30,509 health codes and people thought 1339 00:42:30,510 --> 00:42:32,419 was so ridiculous that all of Weibo was 1340 00:42:32,420 --> 00:42:33,739 full of people making fun of it, and 1341 00:42:33,740 --> 00:42:35,389 people even wrote songs and poems about 1342 00:42:35,390 --> 00:42:37,369 it. And so that really is 1343 00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:40,999 it like so it's through research 1344 00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:43,099 on the ground genuinely is difficult and 1345 00:42:43,100 --> 00:42:44,209 has gotten difficult. 1346 00:42:44,210 --> 00:42:46,309 But there's also so many other ways 1347 00:42:46,310 --> 00:42:48,439 of learning things about what's 1348 00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:50,179 going on in China, and I think we really 1349 00:42:50,180 --> 00:42:51,679 have to start recognizing that it is 1350 00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:53,679 possible to find out about things. 1351 00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:55,039 For example, what social credit? 1352 00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:57,259 I mean, like, one easy 1353 00:42:57,260 --> 00:42:58,609 thing you could do is ask a Chinese 1354 00:42:58,610 --> 00:43:00,739 person and ask them if they have a social 1355 00:43:00,740 --> 00:43:02,119 credit score and if they've recently 1356 00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:03,459 gotten docked points for, for example, 1357 00:43:03,460 --> 00:43:05,599 like running 1358 00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:07,779 a red carpet. And if if they 1359 00:43:07,780 --> 00:43:09,549 have a score, if they like it does 1360 00:43:09,550 --> 00:43:11,679 anything, if it means anything, if they 1361 00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:13,009 like, if it impacts the life in any way, 1362 00:43:13,010 --> 00:43:15,249 I think that would be a very good and 1363 00:43:15,250 --> 00:43:17,379 very easy way of verifying whether this 1364 00:43:17,380 --> 00:43:18,819 really incredibly impactful surveillance 1365 00:43:18,820 --> 00:43:19,820 system truly exists. 1366 00:43:22,260 --> 00:43:24,719 OK, then I have one last 1367 00:43:24,720 --> 00:43:26,789 question, which was that 1368 00:43:26,790 --> 00:43:28,499 the person asking the question really 1369 00:43:28,500 --> 00:43:29,999 liked the point about making the 1370 00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:32,069 government more appear more powerful than 1371 00:43:32,070 --> 00:43:34,229 it really is and is 1372 00:43:34,230 --> 00:43:36,329 asking to what extent 1373 00:43:36,330 --> 00:43:38,849 the government actually tries to spread 1374 00:43:38,850 --> 00:43:41,009 this kind of myths, or maybe 1375 00:43:41,010 --> 00:43:43,169 even as some kind of propaganda to 1376 00:43:43,170 --> 00:43:44,079 see more powerful. 1377 00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:45,179 Do you know anything about it? 1378 00:43:45,180 --> 00:43:46,949 Is that a thing? 1379 00:43:46,950 --> 00:43:47,950 I mean, 1380 00:43:49,770 --> 00:43:51,539 from a political science point of view, 1381 00:43:51,540 --> 00:43:52,649 we know that a lot of the things the 1382 00:43:52,650 --> 00:43:54,929 government is doing are 1383 00:43:54,930 --> 00:43:56,279 basically demonstrations of power. 1384 00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:57,659 I think a good example of this is that 1385 00:43:57,660 --> 00:43:59,369 there was research by a high hyphen, one 1386 00:43:59,370 --> 00:44:01,589 that shows that, for instance, 1387 00:44:01,590 --> 00:44:03,749 propaganda doesn't necessarily really 1388 00:44:03,750 --> 00:44:05,669 change the ideas that people hold, but 1389 00:44:05,670 --> 00:44:07,469 it's simply a way the government kind of 1390 00:44:07,470 --> 00:44:10,019 makes itself appear more powerful 1391 00:44:10,020 --> 00:44:12,089 and essentially so basically is able 1392 00:44:12,090 --> 00:44:14,279 to show that people don't believe 1393 00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:15,959 what the government says, but they become 1394 00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:18,209 more fearful because the government being 1395 00:44:18,210 --> 00:44:20,189 able to run these incredibly pervasive 1396 00:44:20,190 --> 00:44:21,959 propaganda campaigns is a sign how 1397 00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:23,549 powerful they are. 1398 00:44:23,550 --> 00:44:25,349 So I think in that sense, we do know that 1399 00:44:25,350 --> 00:44:27,209 governments, authoritarian governments in 1400 00:44:27,210 --> 00:44:29,609 particular, are interested in looking 1401 00:44:29,610 --> 00:44:32,009 more powerful than they probably are 1402 00:44:32,010 --> 00:44:34,079 because even like there's 1403 00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:36,269 different methods, certain governments 1404 00:44:36,270 --> 00:44:37,919 staying power but looking extremely 1405 00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:40,469 powerful and scary, it's 1406 00:44:40,470 --> 00:44:42,479 almost certainly, almost certainly one of 1407 00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:44,729 them. And so even if there's no specific 1408 00:44:44,730 --> 00:44:46,799 propaganda campaign, we know that 1409 00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:47,789 it's definitely a thing that 1410 00:44:47,790 --> 00:44:49,889 authoritarian governments tend to 1411 00:44:49,890 --> 00:44:51,420 try to do and tend to benefit from. 1412 00:44:54,570 --> 00:44:55,949 OK. 1413 00:44:55,950 --> 00:44:56,909 And I think there are a few more 1414 00:44:56,910 --> 00:44:59,069 questions, maybe you have one shot, maybe 1415 00:44:59,070 --> 00:45:02,459 an anecdote or something about a miss 1416 00:45:02,460 --> 00:45:04,649 Smith's. So myths about Europe 1417 00:45:04,650 --> 00:45:07,049 or the US that are. 1418 00:45:07,050 --> 00:45:08,849 Well, Asia again, is a big place, but 1419 00:45:08,850 --> 00:45:11,189 that our toehold in Asia, the question 1420 00:45:11,190 --> 00:45:13,529 is phrased Oh, 1421 00:45:13,530 --> 00:45:14,670 that's a good question. 1422 00:45:17,060 --> 00:45:19,259 Oh, not off the top 1423 00:45:19,260 --> 00:45:21,769 of my head. I think one interesting. 1424 00:45:21,770 --> 00:45:23,999 Just maybe like an interesting general 1425 00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:25,799 anecdote with regards to the different 1426 00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:27,100 worlds that we live in. 1427 00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:30,029 And sometimes, especially when it comes 1428 00:45:30,030 --> 00:45:31,679 to China with a very specific media 1429 00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:33,479 ecosystem, it's that while there might be 1430 00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:35,759 a lot of people in Europe who 1431 00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:38,039 believe that COVID 1432 00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:40,169 originated in a Chinese lab, there is 1433 00:45:40,170 --> 00:45:41,849 a not insignificant number of people in 1434 00:45:41,850 --> 00:45:43,889 China who believe that COVID originated 1435 00:45:43,890 --> 00:45:47,009 in American lab and was brought to China 1436 00:45:47,010 --> 00:45:48,869 by American soldiers. 1437 00:45:48,870 --> 00:45:51,209 So I think that's like 1438 00:45:51,210 --> 00:45:52,829 maybe not the right answer to the 1439 00:45:52,830 --> 00:45:54,959 question, but it might be 1440 00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:57,270 a good example of how sometimes these 1441 00:45:58,290 --> 00:46:00,749 ideas about the other place 1442 00:46:00,750 --> 00:46:03,809 mirror an extremely obvious way. 1443 00:46:03,810 --> 00:46:04,810 Yeah. 1444 00:46:07,220 --> 00:46:08,869 OK, thank you very much. 1445 00:46:08,870 --> 00:46:11,329 I think that's all the time we have 1446 00:46:11,330 --> 00:46:13,129 for now. Again, thank you very much for 1447 00:46:13,130 --> 00:46:14,779 this very, very interesting talk. 1448 00:46:14,780 --> 00:46:17,089 I hope a lot of people watch now 1449 00:46:17,090 --> 00:46:19,430 or will watch the recordings later.